{"id":1772,"date":"2021-03-26T16:56:19","date_gmt":"2021-03-26T15:56:19","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/www.convivialthinking.org\/?p=1772"},"modified":"2021-03-26T17:17:15","modified_gmt":"2021-03-26T16:17:15","slug":"how-do-we-learn","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/convivialthinking.org\/index.php\/2021\/03\/26\/how-do-we-learn\/","title":{"rendered":"How do we learn? Engaging with communities of knowledge and culture beyond academic spaces"},"content":{"rendered":"<p style=\"text-align: justify;\">As you know we, as Convivial Thinkers, are continously exploring new formats of learning and engagaging with knowledges and especially with communities of knowledge. For that reason, we are extremely happy to host and feature <a href=\"https:\/\/soundcloud.com\/user-909856118\">Parinita Shetty<\/a> and her work by way of text (- this transcript ) and <a href=\"https:\/\/soundcloud.com\/user-909856118\/how-do-we-learn-engaging-with-communities-of-knowledge-and-culture-beyond-academic-spaces\">audio<\/a> (-the podcast conversation between Parinita Shetty, <a href=\"https:\/\/sayandey.com\/\">Sayan Dey<\/a> and <a href=\"https:\/\/essl.leeds.ac.uk\/politics\/staff\/93\/dr-lata-narayanaswamy\">Lata Narayanaswamy<\/a>). When she is not guest podcasting for us, Parinita is exploring how fan podcasts act as sites of public pedagogy by providing a social learning context in informal digital spaces. With her project <a href=\"https:\/\/marginallyfannish.org\/\">Marginally Fannish<\/a> she takes an intersectional lens at online fandom.<\/p>\n<p style=\"text-align: justify;\">In their conversation, Parinita, Sayan and Lata exchange about how collaboratively engaging with knowledge and activism with a wide range of people both within and outside institutionalised academic spaces is crucial. The world we inhabit offers us several different learning opportunities. However, academic structures frequently end up valuing a limited kind of expertise.<\/p>\n<p style=\"text-align: justify;\">Whose cultures, languages, and experiences are considered the default? What kind of knowledge matters? How do you seek alternative communities of knowledge beyond the restrictions of the structure you work in?<\/p>\n<p><!--more--><\/p>\n<p><strong>If you feel like listening:<\/strong><\/p>\n<p><iframe loading=\"lazy\" src=\"https:\/\/w.soundcloud.com\/player\/?url=https%3A\/\/api.soundcloud.com\/tracks\/972455560&amp;color=%23ff5500&amp;auto_play=false&amp;hide_related=false&amp;show_comments=true&amp;show_user=true&amp;show_reposts=false&amp;show_teaser=true&amp;visual=true\" width=\"100%\" height=\"300\" frameborder=\"no\" scrolling=\"no\"><\/iframe><\/p>\n<div style=\"font-size: 10px; color: #cccccc; line-break: anywhere; word-break: normal; overflow: hidden; white-space: nowrap; text-overflow: ellipsis; font-family: Interstate,Lucida Grande,Lucida Sans Unicode,Lucida Sans,Garuda,Verdana,Tahoma,sans-serif; font-weight: 100;\"><a style=\"color: #cccccc; text-decoration: none;\" title=\"Marginally Fannish\" href=\"https:\/\/soundcloud.com\/user-909856118\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">Marginally Fannish<\/a> \u00b7 <a style=\"color: #cccccc; text-decoration: none;\" title=\"How do we learn? Engaging with communities of knowledge and culture beyond academic spaces\" href=\"https:\/\/soundcloud.com\/user-909856118\/how-do-we-learn-engaging-with-communities-of-knowledge-and-culture-beyond-academic-spaces\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">How do we learn? Engaging with communities of knowledge and culture beyond academic spaces<\/a><\/div>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p><strong>If you feel like reading: the transcript follows below.<\/strong><\/p>\n<p style=\"text-align: justify;\"><strong>Intro:<\/strong><\/p>\n<p style=\"text-align: justify;\">The world we inhabit offers us several different learning opportunities. However, academic structures frequently end up valuing a limited kind of expertise. Whose cultures, languages, and experiences are considered the default? What kind of knowledge matters? How do you seek alternative communities of knowledge beyond the restrictions of the structure you work in?<\/p>\n<p style=\"text-align: justify;\">Collaboratively engaging with knowledge and activism with a wide range of people both within and outside institutionalised academic spaces is crucial. Academics have the responsibility to make academic knowledge and theories more accessible and relevant to non-academic contexts. Going even further, academics can work with non-academics to create spaces which explore alternate expressions of knowledge and different approaches to knowledge-building. Conversations with diverse groups of people can challenge limited notions of one-way education and academic expertise by moving towards a more inclusive pedagogy. Encountering each other\u2019s diverse \u2013 sometimes conflicting \u2013 experiences and perspectives in unconventional contexts can help us unlearn our colonised mindsets and discover what we don\u2019t know. Both uncertainty and discomfort hold radically liberating possibilities when it comes to building knowledge, especially when combined with a sincere curiosity to learn from the world.<\/p>\n<p style=\"text-align: justify;\">Find our conversations about all this and more in today\u2019s episode!<\/p>\n<p style=\"text-align: justify;\"><strong>Episode Transcript: <\/strong><\/p>\n<p style=\"text-align: justify;\"><em>(This transcript has been lightly edited for clarity.)<\/em><\/p>\n<p style=\"text-align: justify;\"><strong>Parinita:<\/strong> My name is Parinita Shetty and in this episode, I speak with Dr Lata Narayanaswamy and Dr Sayan Dey about unconventional ways of learning and new communities of knowledge and culture. Both Lata and Sayan are part of the Convivial Thinking collective thanks to which we\u2019re exploring critical, collaborative, and creative forms of decolonisation in our conversation today.<\/p>\n<p style=\"text-align: justify;\">Since 2001 Dr. Narayanaswamy has worked as a research practitioner, consultant and most recently lecturer in international development in the School of Politics and International Studies at the University of Leeds.\u00a0Her research critically reflects on gendered\/intersectional and post\/decolonial dynamics of development knowledge and its perceived contribution to global development challenges. She is currently involved in applied, interdisciplinary research related to climate change, water security and decolonising development.<\/p>\n<p style=\"text-align: justify;\">Sayan Dey grew up in Kolkata, West Bengal. He completed his studies from Banaras Hindu University, Varanasi and is currently working as Lecturer at the Yonphula Centenary College, Royal University of Bhutan. He is also the Senior Advisor of Quality Education Group, Center for Regional Research and Sustainability Studies, India.<\/p>\n<p style=\"text-align: justify;\">I\u2019m a third-year doctoral researcher in the School of Education at the University of Leeds. I\u2019m really interested in exploring how fan podcasts \u2013 especially those featuring people from marginalised groups &#8211; use the framework of their favourite media texts to share their diverse perspectives and experiences. I\u2019m also passionate about using digital media to make academic research accessible to non-academic audiences as well as to include a diverse range of non-academic voices in academic spaces.<\/p>\n<p style=\"text-align: justify;\"><strong>Parinita<\/strong>: Hello! It\u2019s really nice to talk to people who are not just me and my boyfriend and my cat. [laughs] It\u2019s nice to see other faces. I\u2019m just going to start off because we have a lot to talk about. In terms of unconventional engagements with knowledge as well as culture in spaces that are beyond educational spaces or institutional spaces &#8211; I do a bit of that in my project, but I was really interested in how you have dealt with that in your own work or otherwise.<\/p>\n<p style=\"text-align: justify;\"><strong>Lata<\/strong>: First thank you for inviting me into your podcast world. It\u2019s very nice to be here. It\u2019s difficult because I think it\u2019s the kind of thing that as academics we don\u2019t do enough of, for a start. I think we do tend to think about academic spaces in very narrow ways. Where and how we learn is conceptualised in very narrow ways, right? So you\u2019re in a classroom or you\u2019re in a building; you have to go somewhere. I suppose the most immediately obvious counterpoint in my own life has been just having children and thinking about learning in a much more dynamic way. And trying to instil in them that there\u2019s never an opportunity not to learn from something that\u2019s happening around you or something that you might observe or something that you might see on the news or hear on the radio or an interaction you might have with a friend. You can talk about issues or interesting things or relevant things or share lessons about the world on the walk to school or a picnic in the park. In terms of even more formal kinds of spaces \u2026 this was not formal, but another opportunity was during an election, right? Say you go along for a political party and you\u2019re door-knocking. I did that in the last election in the UK \u2013 and less said about that, the better, in terms of the outcome. But certainly, in thinking about what it might mean to actually knock on somebody\u2019s door and have a conversation about the things that matter to them and then finding that common ground. And seeing that as integral to shared learning or co-production and enriching myself. I don\u2019t mean that in a selfish way; but I think it\u2019s about approaching learning and academia as a two-way street. And I think there\u2019s a tendency in lots of educational contexts to see education as a one-way street. In academia we\u2019re particularly bad. And in higher education too, there is a framing of expertise: \u201cI\u2019m the person that knows stuff and I\u2019m going to impart to you all this wisdom that I have.\u201d And I\u2019m very keen that we turn that on its head. I do think that\u2019s possible within the classroom and we can have more dynamic and inclusive pedagogical approaches. But I really think it\u2019s about trying to think through how we can not only create but also seek out those opportunities to have conversations in more diverse contexts and with a greater diversity of people.<\/p>\n<p style=\"text-align: justify;\"><strong>Parinita<\/strong>: Um hmm.<\/p>\n<p style=\"text-align: justify;\"><strong>Lata<\/strong>: I think as academics, we have a responsibility to do that, if I\u2019m honest. And I don\u2019t know that we have the tools or the language to do it. But it would be something that I\u2019d want for us to be exploring more collectively. Even you and I being on a picket line; I mean that\u2019s an opportunity to have a conversation. Not just about your cat or your breakfast \u2013 although we can have that conversation too. But how do we expand our educational engagements? And who do we bring into that space with us? How do we learn from it? They\u2019re different questions. I don\u2019t think we ask those questions enough in academia.<\/p>\n<p style=\"text-align: justify;\"><strong>Parinita<\/strong>: Absolutely.<\/p>\n<p style=\"text-align: justify;\"><strong>Sayan<\/strong>: Just to continue with where Lata stopped. As Lata also mentioned categorically, to balance the academic and the non-academic spaces I think we often talk about activism within and outside the academia. It\u2019s easy to talk; it\u2019s interesting to talk; it\u2019s nice to quote theorists and show off how much we have read. But when it goes into the question of application, we see a whole lot of challenges. Personally, I think that there\u2019s this process of engaging within and beyond academia at the same time, it\u2019s not an \u201cI\u201d thing, it\u2019s a very \u201cwe\u201d thing. I alone can\u2019t do anything. Alone I can sit and talk a lot, but if I have to do something, alone I can\u2019t do anything. With respect to the things that Parinita and I were talking about just a few moments back before the recording started, you were sharing how did you meet Lata and then how did you take up your conversation. And that was a collective space. That was a collective space where you met, where you started engaging. And I think that engagement was not just an engagement of \u201chello\u201d and \u201chi\u201d. But it was that moment where you were creating knowledge; you were altogether weaving new dimensions of intellectual ideas outside the restricted academic space. Coming back to our personal engagements with everyday decoloniality, I usually engage with lots of people \u2013 with respect to podcasts, with respect to interactions, with respect to writings and readings and engaging \u2013 and Lata is an integral part of that. As an individual in relation to others, I try to understand how can I engage with decolonial practices in everyday life. Now let me give you very, very basic examples. So for instance, I have a problem in using a spoon and fork while eating. And that is a physical problem; it\u2019s not an ideological problem. So basically, I\u2019m not very comfortable, to be very honest and blunt. Now if someone is having bread and a cup of tea in a roadside restaurant in India, that person is not really concerned whether he is eating with one hand or two hands. But if that same person goes to a 5-star restaurant, that person is extremely concerned; that person is extremely aware and he\u2019s trying to use the tea and fork thing when he\u2019s not going to do the same thing in a roadside restaurant. But for me, I find it quite problematic; this practice is quite problematic. It\u2019s a cultural problem, it\u2019s a social problem, it\u2019s a racial problem. It has its roots in the colonial ethics and morals that we still follow consciously or unconsciously. So wherever I go, whether it\u2019s a roadside open shop or it\u2019s a 5-star restaurant, I\u2019m going to use my hands. And I really don\u2019t care if people are shrugging, they\u2019re sniggering, because that\u2019s not my problem. I\u2019ve gone to savour the food and I like the food and I just come back. It\u2019s as simple as that. And I pay money for that so I\u2019m not stealing. So that\u2019s perfectly fine. So from all respects, I am safe there. This is one such example. The second thing I can tell you is with respect to the concept of languages. I don\u2019t know if it is there in the UK, but in Indian schools, if you go to the English-medium schools in general \u2013 and I\u2019m pretty sure Parinita also has that experience \u2013 you will see when the teachers teach us English, they have this tendency of imposing the typical UK-styled English or the US-styled English on the students. Let me give you another very basic example. If suppose in a parents-teachers meeting, parents ask the teachers, \u201cI want to see my kid improving spoken English. What should I do?\u201d The teacher will always say \u2013 usually, not always \u2013 that \u201cOkay ask them to watch a BBC; ask them to watch a CNBC; ask them to watch a Star Movies; ask them to watch an ESPN.\u201d I mean there are English-speaking channels in India as well. You have English-speaking news channels \u2013 sensible news channels are there as well, along with several non-sensible news channels. But there are places where people can learn. So why by default, consciously or unconsciously, we have to make a consistent reference to Western dimensions, Western parameters? So I think this process of questioning through action, not questioning just as questioning. Questioning through action living as examples, within and outside the academic space. Because these examples cannot only be set within the academic space. Obviously, we need to discuss, we need to theorise, we need to problematise, we need to unsettle. But also, we need to continue it beyond the academic space through making it as a part of practice of our daily existence, individually as well as collectively. And this is how I try to do that, and these are some of the things I would like to share.<\/p>\n<p style=\"text-align: justify;\"><strong>Parinita<\/strong>: I totally connect with what both of you are saying. For me, I\u2019ve grown up in Bombay and I went to one of those English-medium schools; a Catholic school actually, because there was the imposition of English in India. At least when I was growing up, the perception was that the nuns teach you better English. So as a part of social mobility, that\u2019s where you go to learn better English. And because I\u2019ve grown up in India and because most of the stuff I grew up reading was British children\u2019s literature or American children\u2019s literature and then American media, for me, it was this colonised mindset \u2013that I\u2019m still trying to unlearn \u2013 that English is better than other languages. And because you grow up in the space, nobody is disrupting that thinking and nobody is really questioning that. Because that\u2019s the world that you live in as well, right? If you don\u2019t have any social or financial capital or any sort of help there, you are reliant on employers who might then look at your English and decide that if you don\u2019t speak good English, you\u2019re not as intelligent as someone who speaks English. And for me, the framework of learning to think and unlearn this social conditioning has largely been online honestly, and specifically through fandom. The school that I went to, they didn\u2019t teach you to think critically at all. They just taught you what to think and that\u2019s what you write in your exam papers. And you don\u2019t understand the context or you don\u2019t understand enough to question. There\u2019s no questioning at all; questioning is not allowed. And even though I was in Mumbai which is a fairly big city, you still have a small social bubble so you still have mostly people who are like you. And it\u2019s only through fandom, <em>Harry Potter<\/em> fandom specifically, which is where my unlearning started. Because it\u2019s such a globally popular text, the fans came from a wide range of backgrounds, and that\u2019s where I learned things about decolonisation and queerness. Recently because of J. K. Rowling\u2019s transphobia, there\u2019s been more talk about that. And that\u2019s a whole education in itself. You\u2019re both marginalised and privileged in this space. As someone who\u2019s grown up in India, you think fandom and everything happens in the West and then you see that oh there are other people like you. For me fan podcasts more recently have been such a fantastic way to learn and unlearn things. Because more and more people, especially fans who are from marginalised backgrounds, are using the fictional framework, are using this language of <em>Harry Potter<\/em> or <em>Doctor Who<\/em> or Marvel or whatever, which everybody knows, and then pushing against that. They love these texts \u2013 we love these texts \u2013 but we are unpacking the more problematic elements of it. I think that\u2019s fantastic because in academia, I still don\u2019t really see myself. I don\u2019t really feel quite comfortable in academia because none of my parents went to university and onto higher education or a PhD or anything. So I still feel like I\u2019m conning academia in a way; that I\u2019m doing fan studies and intersectionality and podcasts. And I\u2019m like, \u201cWait, they\u2019re allowing me to do this?\u201d And I don\u2019t really see me being in academia at all after that. Even though I think there would be \u2013 there should be room for it. Like what you were saying, Lata, about what kind of language is acceptable and who has expertise and what kind of knowledge matters \u2013 I think that should be expanded. But I think academia is still a little hesitant to do that; not people within it but structurally, it is quite reluctant to do these things. The podcast that I\u2019m doing for my PhD research \u2013 my supervisors, everyone, was super happy for me to do it as a research method. And they also suggested I present my PhD thesis as a podcast which they thought makes sense in terms of my focus on co-creating knowledge outside the academy and in online spaces. But then the university itself is not comfortable with that. And podcasts aren\u2019t even this new-fangled technology; they\u2019ve been around for a really long time. With the episodes so far, I\u2019ve reached a fair amount of people. It\u2019s not a huge number, but it\u2019s much more than a journal article in traditional academic language and structured traditionally or a PhD thesis would have reached. It\u2019s not just me saying my expertise, it\u2019s me trying to learn from other perspectives as well. My podcast is a fan podcast, and we\u2019re aiming an intersectional lens at both fandom and some of our favourite media. Since I tried to recruit co-participants online, it reached a fair amount of people. So I have people from diverse countries and they all have their own \u2013 our own individual social contexts and political contexts. So we do bring that in and we learn from each other. Which I think is really valuable. But I don\u2019t think it\u2019s as valued in the university, unfortunately. How do you try and seek this community, this community of knowledge, elsewhere if it isn\u2019t being given space in the structure that you\u2019re working in? How do you think you can do that or people can do that?<\/p>\n<p style=\"text-align: justify;\"><strong>Sayan<\/strong>: I think one of the basic ways from where we can start and actually from where we are all starting, is collaboration. Because collaboration is something that always gives us the option to stay within academia, just within that space if we feel like; but at the same time to disentangle ourselves from those narrow restricted spaces of this academic system and indulge with people who are working right in the field as activists, performers scholars, musicians \u2013 whatever or whoever it is. To stay within and beyond at the same time. Nowadays, for example, whenever we have these academic events, amongst many institutions I am seeing changes which is actually making me feel very happy and also very optimistic of the transformations. Earlier there was this notion that a keynote speaker has to be the so-called seasoned academician with a fat CV and a huge number of publications and a massive resume. The bio note will be read for the first fifteen minutes and then the lecture starts. These kind of usual categorisations are getting broken. We see activists coming up. We see people who may not be very well-known \u2013 so-called \u201cvery well-known\u201d in terms of publications and all \u2013 but have significant contributions to the ground-level towards their respective communities and societies. And they are coming up in that academic stage to share. And that is how now the direction is changing. Earlier there was this notion that activism travels from academia to the society, and not the other way round. Now because of this unidirectional dimension, till now what happened is that the battle of control remained in the hands of the academic system. And they have been acting not less than the colonial empire. And they have been regulating it in their own manner and using it for their self-centred needs. But now when it is happening the other way round, it is also dropping a strong message that sure, we are ready to learn from you, thank you so much, we need to learn from you. And you also need to learn from us. So this process is not a unidirectional journey. It\u2019s an exchange as well. For instance, last year I think it at the University of Kwa-Zulu Natal in South Africa who started their first decolonial summer school. Now during the decolonial summer school, obviously they had lecturers from academicians like Professor Nelson Maldonaldo-Torres, Ramon Grosfoguel and several others who came up and delivered lectures; but that was not the end of the story. They also invited activists, local activists. They invited local dancers, they invited local musicians. And they were brought to the central academic space to make the people understand that how at the very basic social level, the process of decolonisation takes place. Because obviously we read a lot of theorists but when we go to the very ground level, it is impossible for us to exactly interpret or reflect on the theories in those exact terms and languages. We have to do it in a completely different manner so that it is relatable and connected to people as well. So I think one of the major ways through which we can do it is to build collaborations which actually gives us the opportunity that if academic space is not allowing us, it doesn\u2019t mean that my all the doors are shut. I have other branches open, other channels open, where I can take out the activism there and channelise it among the folks.<\/p>\n<p style=\"text-align: justify;\"><strong>Parinita<\/strong>: Based on what you said, I think sometimes academia tends to value and privilege theory too much without exploring how it is done by people, perhaps without using those terms, but people are still doing it. Intersectionality, for example, is something that I encountered online for the first time. I know that there\u2019s this huge history of scholarship and activism in it as well. But thanks to the internet there\u2019s more everyday engagement with it. And it might not be perfect, but it\u2019s not like scholars are perfect, right? There\u2019s always debates happening within journal articles and papers slamming each other\u2019s ideas and theories and stuff. So that\u2019s what\u2019s happening online. But online there is no one person to say this is correct or this is wrong. You\u2019ll get into fights and things but you\u2019re still trying to form your own ideas about it. And it\u2019s valuable even for someone like me, who\u2019s largely a lurker. Apart from my PhD podcast now, I don\u2019t really write long articles or anything about this. But I\u2019m learning a lot from what other people are saying. During my master\u2019s, there was this lecture about critical literacy and it was a term I\u2019d never encountered before. It basically means unpacking the meanings in texts and all the multiple layers and questioning everything; questioning what\u2019s written, questioning social norms, political norms. And I was like, I haven\u2019t learned this myself in school, but I have seen fans doing this online. But they wouldn\u2019t call it critical literacy. Similarly with intersectionality. Because I listen to a range of fan podcasts made by trans fans, gay fans, black fans \u2026 not Indian fans so much, it\u2019s largely in the West still. But they are bringing their perspectives into it and into the text that they are analysing. They\u2019re maybe not calling it intersectionality, but that\u2019s still what they\u2019re doing. And I think that also needs to be valued. Or maybe not valued; the fans don\u2019t care if academics value them or not. But I think academia is losing out on not seeing these other cultures of knowledge and communities of knowledge.<\/p>\n<p style=\"text-align: justify;\"><strong>Lata<\/strong>: I\u2019m thinking about what you\u2019re both saying. It\u2019s just fascinating because to go back to the point you made about how do you create these spaces and what do we do, I\u2019m actually struck by how in a way what you\u2019re describing, Parinita, is about our academic responsibility to be speaking to people about those connections. And Sayan, everything you said is very relevant about bringing more people into that space, valuing different people, different types of knowledge; let\u2019s not valourise expertise at the expense of this. I totally a hundred per cent agree with all of that. If you want to be what you might call an activist academic, or somebody who wants to bridge that gap, then we have a responsibility to try to create that bridge in our engagements. So, for instance, what you\u2019re describing, Parinita, about people who might be doing critical \u2026 um what did you call it?<\/p>\n<p style=\"text-align: justify;\"><strong>Parinita<\/strong>: Literacy.<\/p>\n<p style=\"text-align: justify;\"><strong>Lata<\/strong>: Critical literacy. But actually, the responsibility we have as academics is to make things like theory accessible. I actually think we have a responsibility to do that. Even in my teaching, I always describe theories as, \u201cThis is fancy social science way of describing X, Y and Z.\u201d I don\u2019t believe that theory exists separately to the world that we live in. The best theory is absolutely grounded in the world; that\u2019s what it is about. It\u2019s about finding a way of explaining multiple things at the same time. That\u2019s all theory is. And if the theory doesn\u2019t do what we need it to do, then I need to either make up or find another theory. That for me is very important. It\u2019s almost like having a platform and the power. It\u2019s like having a power and wanting to use it for good, right? If I am given the platform as an academic to speak, then I have a responsibility to not only say things that bring people in, but actually to make space for more people. I have a responsibility. And I suppose it\u2019s not just about being an academic, it\u2019s anybody that has power. In my view, that power best exercised is about actually trying to make sure that more people have power, right? It\u2019s not about consolidating it and keeping it to myself. Now obviously I use power very loosely. It\u2019s not like I have a huge amount of power as an academic. But in whatever way I\u2019m able to, I think, is a key responsibility. So Sayan what you\u2019re describing is absolutely right. If I\u2019m going to put together a conference or if I\u2019m going to put together a workshop, then if I\u2019m the organiser, I take on the responsibility of bringing more people into the space and making the argument for why they need to be there. If I have the power to do that, I need to use it. And I see the same thing about how we engage. I\u2019ve had quite a few opportunities recently, it\u2019s been wonderful. Obviously, the pandemic\u2019s a disaster, there\u2019s no two ways; I wouldn\u2019t wish it on anybody. But if there\u2019s been one ever-so-slightly silver lining, it has been that because everybody seems to be moving online it has facilitated my engagement in spaces that I probably wouldn\u2019t have had an opportunity to do. Whether that\u2019s because of work, I don\u2019t have time to travel, I\u2019ve got other responsibilities, so I can only do so many things. Now I\u2019m at home and I\u2019ve got my computer so suddenly I can be involved in all sorts of things. I can be in one event in the afternoon and another event in a completely different time zone in the evening. That\u2019s actually been a really positive thing. And the result of that has been then again to think about how can I use that platform to try to make some of these arguments but make them accessible, inclusive. How do I bring people into this space and to make it seem as if it should matter to other people? So even those arguments around decoloniality, the thing that I find deeply frustrating is that \u2013 and I also work around gender \u2013 so whether it\u2019s decoloniality or gender, it\u2019s like, \u201cOh well if you\u2019re white, decoloniality has nothing to do with you.\u201d Or \u201cOh if you\u2019re a man, gender has nothing to do with you.\u201d And it\u2019s about actually pushing back and saying okay, let\u2019s have these debates. And my responsibility is at least partly to say, okay why did these issues or these theories or these activist voices \u2013 why did they matter to you? How do we bring you into that space in a way that you feel that this becomes your responsibility as well? And if I have any power to affect that kind of change, I actually think it is also then about bringing people into that dialogue who think that they shouldn\u2019t be there. So for me, whether it\u2019s around decoloniality theory to practice, I think as academics, if you\u2019re going to be critical decolonial transformative academics, that is part of your job. You\u2019re like a translator. In a way it goes back to the earlier part of our conversation, because I don\u2019t think academia has any tools for us to do this. I feel like you\u2019re just making it up on the fly. You do it out of a sense of commitment, you do it out of a sense of love even. But also a commitment to want to see the world work differently. But I would also agree that there is no roadmap. I mean it\u2019s interesting, Parinita, what you describe about engaging with fan podcasts as a sort of learning journey for you. And it suggests again, like your original question, education doesn\u2019t just happen in classrooms. Not that I\u2019m saying we should make a roadmap. That suddenly we should turn around and try to turn that into expert knowledge. But certainly, an acknowledgement that the ways in which we might engage with these different pluriversal arguments or decoloniality or expanding our views on education \u2013 the pathways for that are not linear at all. And I suppose if I thought of myself as an activist academic, what I want is to be supportive of pluriversal approaches to education where we can acknowledge that learning and engagement and change happens in lots of different ways and through lots of different pathways with lots of different people. And it might be in unpredictable ways as well. We\u2019ve just got to keep making the argument, keep trying to do this. And what might come of that is not predictable \u2013 and actually that\u2019s okay. We have to learn to live with a little bit of uncertainty. And Sayan\u2019s point about it\u2019s not \u201cI\u201d, it\u2019s \u201cwe\u201d; that eventually the more people you bring in, the power of that collective, you will eventually be the change you want to see.<\/p>\n<p style=\"text-align: justify;\"><strong>Parinita<\/strong>: Absolutely. I think that\u2019s a fantastic point, what both of you brought up. Lata, what you were saying in terms of how you are now able to engage with more spaces online because of the pandemic, it\u2019s the same with me; I\u2019ve been able to do that as well. At the same time, I\u2019ve also been following these conversations on Twitter that disabled academics and academics with caregiving responsibilities have been wanting these spaces so much for so long. And it had been completely possible to do it as well because the technology was there. The technology has been there, but the will wasn\u2019t. Nobody really wanted to do it until there was no other option. And then suddenly, \u201cOh right, it\u2019s the easiest thing to do to!\u201d To stream these things online and to have it on YouTube and not just make it accessible to fellow academics but to people who don\u2019t have access to academia. Because that\u2019s also a privilege, right? Getting into a university, for whatever reasons isn\u2019t available to everybody \u2013 your money, country, regional origin or other stuff. You may still want to learn but you\u2019re unable to learn because you don\u2019t have the money, because you have other responsibilities; and that\u2019s such a shame. Which is why I totally resonate with making academic knowledge more accessible to people \u2013 both academics but also, more importantly, non-academics \u2013 in a way that also privileges their voices and their experiences as well. So it\u2019s not just academics talking about this sub-group of people but actually, we are that group of people and we\u2019re bringing that experience together. Both of you have very different ways that you\u2019ve done that either through podcasting or even the blog <em>Convivial Thinking<\/em>. Do you want to talk about your projects or your work a little bit? And how you\u2019ve tried to make that more accessible?<\/p>\n<p style=\"text-align: justify;\"><strong>Sayan<\/strong>: Talking about my project. Obviously, it\u2019s not just one project; I have been engaging in different types of projects. But in relation to what we have been talking about right now, what Lata and Parinita mentioned, in context to balancing, trying to create a bridge between the academic space and the non-academic space \u2013 the challenges and the possibilities. One thing I have been trying to do since last year, I use this podcast as a tool to do that, as you have been doing. In alignment with what Parinita just mentioned with how she has been able to position her understandings with respect to research and many things beyond that \u2013 not only within the constricted academic space but also outside as well, trying to compare them, balance them \u2013 the same thing happened for me. One of the central reasons why <a href=\"https:\/\/sayandey.com\/miscellaneous\/\">I wanted to do a podcast series on everyday decoloniality<\/a> \u2013 which actually started with an idea of three podcasts and then it expanded to twelve to thirteen podcasts \u2013 the basic idea was actually to bring these ideas of coloniality to the common people and those who may not have read anything about decoloniality; who may not be acquainted with the term decoloniality. There can be some people who will just hear the term and will like to know what is decoloniality all about? And that person may not be an academician. That person can be a roadside vendor \u2013 what is wrong in that? A person can be a vegetable seller, a hotel person, someone who goes to the office and works, and someone who is driving the car and just wanted to listen \u2013 what is this buzz everyday decoloniality all about? So my central idea behind that podcast was that. And I started having researchers, I had academicians, I had activists, I had musicians, I had film actors, who just came in and talked from multiple dimensions of decoloniality. Multiple dimensions with respect to race, with respect to classroom, with respect to pedagogies, with respect to performance, with respect to music \u2013 different dimensions came into the conversation. In fact, <a href=\"https:\/\/convivialthinking.podbean.com\/e\/ep2-jazz-hip-hop-blues-and-anti-black-racism-turning-towards-decolonial-aesthetics\/\">I had a very interesting conversation on music with Professor Lewis Gordon<\/a>, who writes a lot about blues and jazz, and we had a fantastic conversation on that.\u00a0 Apart from these academicians, we had several other people who were not exactly seasoned so-called academicians like professors and all; they are some researchers and performers. And the interesting part is \u2013 which I actually share with people with extreme happiness and pride \u2013 one of the biggest fans of my podcast was my dad, actually. Obviously one side of happiness is it\u2019s my dad, but my dad has been a 9-to-5 banker and he likes to read a lot of books, he likes to read a lot of story books and newspapers, watches news channels, he analyses things good. But he has no connection with decoloniality, even with this term, in any way in his life till date. But he became a fan. And the best part was that every time he would listen to the podcast, he would give his interpretations, he will try to understand, and he was able to understand the essence of the podcast without me giving any background of that. And I felt that was somewhere a little bit I succeeded. Because an individual \u2013 I\u2019m forgetting about the part that he\u2019s my dad, I\u2019m just taking him as an individual who has no connection with this notion of decoloniality to any extent and he could understand the essence of that particular thing. And he would ask questions and those questions were literally very critical questions. It\u2019s not just random questions \u2013 \u201cI did not understand\u201d or something like that. And then he would also give his analysis with respect to his life experiences which he will start recovering from his childhood \u2013 which he never did that previously. So this is one example. Apart from that, it just touched so many people who have never been associated with this. I have one of my aunts who started listening to it; who has no, no, no connection with any kind of decoloniality. Now I\u2019m not saying I have done a massive job, or I have done a revolutionary thing. But we start with drops of water and drops of water makes an ocean. And it gives me a lot of courage to see that somewhere somewhat even the common people are not only able to understand the essence of this podcast, but they can also unsettle themselves and self-realise that what they have been engaging with on various dimensions was not actually on their own. It was actually enforced by an external power. It encourages me to, as you say, you also want to do a Season 2, that encourages me to do a season 2 as well. Podcasting acts as a tool through engaging with ideas which are critical but at the same time that are also relatable to any layman who has no connection with it. So somewhere somewhat I feel that process of unsettling, the vision of unsettling, which I started with, it has started somewhere.<\/p>\n<p style=\"text-align: justify;\"><strong>Lata<\/strong>: I admire Sayan for how much he gets done.<\/p>\n<p style=\"text-align: justify;\"><strong>Parinita<\/strong>: [laughs]<\/p>\n<p style=\"text-align: justify;\"><strong>Lata<\/strong>: We can only all wish to be as productive. And I\u2019m not exactly tech-savvy. In fact, setting up this Zoom meeting is a superb accomplishment for me.<\/p>\n<p style=\"text-align: justify;\"><strong>Parinita<\/strong>: [laughs]<\/p>\n<p style=\"text-align: justify;\"><strong>Lata<\/strong>: For all the Zoom meetings I\u2019ve been doing over the last six months, I only realised two weeks ago that I never set one up myself.<\/p>\n<p style=\"text-align: justify;\"><strong>Parinita<\/strong>: And it\u2019s really easy, right? Once you just sit down and do it, you\u2019re like, oh yeah this is easy.<\/p>\n<p style=\"text-align: justify;\"><strong>Lata<\/strong>: Yeah. It must be reasonably intuitive because I\u2019m not \u2026 I\u2019m comfortable talking online, talking to you both, wonderful, fine. But the actual nitty-gritty of setting it up. So anyway, the point is, my instinct is not to do this. Not because I don\u2019t want to but I don\u2019t have the skills. To go back to your question, my engagement with Sayan came through <em>Convivial Thinking<\/em>. And I wouldn\u2019t want to take any credit for either conceiving of this space or curating it because I have only been an admiring bystander and just trying to be supportive of the principles. But I can\u2019t claim any sort of authorship of design or drive because my head doesn\u2019t work that way. But I admire it greatly. Having said that, obviously I am in the <em>Convivial Thinking<\/em> collective and obviously that\u2019s how I\u2019ve gotten to know Sayan which has been just a huge privilege. And engaging with people who are motivated that way is also really inspiring for me. Not so inspiring that I feel like I can get my head around web design. Right, there are limits.<\/p>\n<p style=\"text-align: justify;\"><strong>Parinita<\/strong>: [laughs]<\/p>\n<p style=\"text-align: justify;\"><strong>Lata<\/strong>: But inspiring enough that it\u2019s really easy. I like to think of myself as the marketing. When I was actually going places, I had my pile of <em>Convivial Thinking<\/em> postcards and I would sit and chuck them out at people and go, \u201cOh by the way, I support this website.\u201d And it\u2019s great because I find it really easy to promote things that I admire and people I admire. That\u2019s a lot easier than talking about anything to do with myself. It\u2019s really easy to go, \u201cOh I have all these fantastic colleagues doing this brilliant website. Here, have this postcard!\u201d That\u2019s been one element of just trying to get the message out in terms of thinking that there\u2019s an alternative space. One of the things that we\u2019ve talked about \u2013 Sayan and Aftab and Julia and I \u2013 over email, queries will come up about things to do with the website. So the really positive thing about the website is actually the way it was established and the purpose of establishing it. It was very much driven by, \u201cOkay, how do we create a space for alternative \u2013 not just alternative knowledges but alternative expressions of knowledge and debates about alternative expressions of knowledge?\u201d There\u2019s all these different things that are similar, not the same but they\u2019re interacting &#8211; what it is but how you get it. Even what is alternative knowledge? Who gets to decide what alternative knowledge is? Or who gets to decide what knowledge is and then what the alternative is? The difficulty of the language. As soon as you talk about alternative knowledge, well that mainstreams a certain kind of knowledge \u2013 that\u2019s the expert academic knowledge and you\u2019re othering the rest of it. Trying to have these debates has been really amazing. And again, I can\u2019t take any credit for the innovation at all, but the fact that <em>Convivial Thinking<\/em> now has a YouTube channel. So, Parinita, the kind of thing you\u2019re saying about the internet creating these opportunities, and Sayan, you\u2019re absolutely right; both of you are saying things which are super important in the sense that there are concerns around digital literacy, there\u2019s different types of exclusion that we have to be aware of and I think we are. But the fact is we can diversify our audiences and reach people we couldn\u2019t reach, right? That is and continues to be a motivation. And, in fact, I actually originally was connected to Julia through an online conference that I did in 2017. But I outsourced the tech end of it because I wasn\u2019t going to manage it! And I didn\u2019t have the license with the software anyway. But it was motivated by similar sorts of concerns and I think that\u2019s what connected us and why she reached out to me in the way that she\u2019s so fantastic at doing, and then connected me to Sayan and Aftab which has been amazing. And why actually, Parinita, when we met on the picket line, you were very much a kindred spirit. Because it was almost like these constellations of all these wonderful people coming together who have all these again, different approaches to knowledge building \u2013 which I don\u2019t have but admire and want to promote. So for me, maybe actually what it is is I\u2019m actually your fans.<\/p>\n<p style=\"text-align: justify;\"><strong>Parinita<\/strong>: [laughs]<\/p>\n<p style=\"text-align: justify;\"><strong>Lata<\/strong>: I\u2019ve got my own little decolonial fandom. I know who I wanted to promote so that\u2019s very much where I situate myself. With some exceptions; I\u2019ve written the odd blog here and there and I\u2019ve tried to support where I can. But I\u2019m very much the fan or the admirer as opposed to curator of content. And I think that\u2019s great. And in a way actually it\u2019s a wonderful position to be in. Because even in my positionality as an academic, I quite like taking the time to reflect and to use that position, which I think is incredibly privileged; to actually reflect on what I don\u2019t know and the messages that I can promote that aren\u2019t mine. That\u2019s actually a really nice thing. I don\u2019t actually like talking about myself \u2013 what\u2019s the fun in that? Whereas I can talk about all these other people that I know who are people doing fantastic work. Let\u2019s talk about that! That\u2019s going to be great. We did this online conference and similar sort of issues would come up and we did it as text-based thing, so you post stuff. But one of the things even in 2017, before we had a pandemic and this became a necessity, was again to try and reach people that might not be able to travel, might not be able to get a visa. So these debates are happening and you\u2019re always trying to either curate or involve yourself try to build more dynamic spaces to include more people. But there are limitations. And I think that\u2019s the thing with <em>Convivial Thinking<\/em>. We\u2019re always trying to overcome and trying to be more nuanced in that. So obviously there\u2019s the actual thing about inclusion\/exclusion and around digital literacies; have I even got an internet connection? So we\u2019re not going to get to everybody. And I think upfront we get that. Then there\u2019s those layers that you\u2019re trying to unpack that start to make the project in a way more important and also more interesting and more of a challenge, as some things you simply cannot overcome. The most immediate one that we talk about most often is obviously the absolute hegemony of the English language, right? So we had a colleague in Leeds, for instance, who wanted to write in a kind of mixture of Spanish and English. And we were like, yeah! Totally. Go for that, please do, that would be wonderful. Because that\u2019s how she wants to express herself. And we\u2019re like, yeah that sounds wonderful. So she did and that was amazing. <a href=\"https:\/\/convivialthinking.org\/index.php\/2019\/11\/02\/as-scholars-from-the-global-south\/\">Laura Loyola-Hernand\u00e9z<\/a> did that and it was wonderful but it\u2019s a limitation, right? It\u2019s still text. So this podcast again offers a counterpoint to that, that\u2019s wonderful. But again is there bandwidth to run audio files? There are other sorts of things that might come out of that. But things like performance, poetry, photography, video images \u2026 I mean there are still barriers. We have to be mindful of the fact that we are still creating different types of inclusions and exclusions. But I would say overall that it shouldn\u2019t still stop us from exploring both alternative knowledges or different knowledges or pluriversal knowledges but also pluriversal approaches to knowledge-building. So it shouldn\u2019t be a limitation. To go back to your original question, Parinita, actually being involved with <em>Convivial Thinking<\/em> in itself has been hugely enriching. Because the engagement \u2013 whether it was the online conference early on where you\u2019re having to actively confront it but now with <em>Convivial Thinking<\/em>, in very much a support role \u2013 is still a fantastic education for me. The challenge has been how do I take that learning around inclusion\/exclusion \u2013 the new dynamics that emerge \u2013 and then try to apply that in my own academic spaces; in the conversations that we\u2019ve been having about how do we include more people or more views? And rehearsing that in a way has been hugely valuable because I think I am now thinking about things that, if I hadn\u2019t been involved with <em>Convivial Thinking,<\/em> wouldn\u2019t have even occurred to me. So again, selfishly maybe, it\u2019s been hugely valuable \u2013 that engagement. And this kind of conversation even today, what a great learning opportunity, again, selfishly for me.<\/p>\n<p style=\"text-align: justify;\"><strong>Parinita<\/strong>: But that\u2019s brilliant. And that\u2019s something that you said, Sayan, as well about it being collaborative. For me, that\u2019s one thing that I sort of had a hint about when I launched my project properly in January but now I\u2019m even more determined about this, that knowledge is so much more enriched when it\u2019s co-created through dialogue because you don\u2019t know what you don\u2019t know. And you only learn these things when you\u2019re talking to people. Like the blind-spots that you have, you don\u2019t even know they\u2019re blind-spots. And obviously it\u2019s a lifelong process of unlearning and relearning and even identifying first of all that social conditioning and then undoing that. So Sayan, you used the term common people, which I thought was really interesting because I very much see myself as common people. I don\u2019t see myself as an academic. I don\u2019t know if that\u2019s raging imposter syndrome \u2013 I\u2019m sure it is. Because before I did my master\u2019s, <a href=\"https:\/\/www.getlitt.co\/blog\/five-minutes-with-indian-childrens-book-author-parinita-shetty\/\">I\u2019m a children\u2019s book writer<\/a> so I work with children\u2019s books and young people in different ways. I\u2019ve worked in a school, I\u2019ve done activities, I\u2019ve worked in bookshops. So for me, that was my engagement with knowledge as an adult, a newish adult, in the beginning \u2013 getting kids excited about books because they were so important to me. But with kids who are more reluctant, who didn\u2019t already think books were awesome, I had to trick them into making it more fun; so I used to design these activities and have conversations with them. I did this reading programme in a school which was largely first-generation English-speakers. So how to make them connect to this picture book that I\u2019m reading that\u2019s set in France maybe or the US or the UK or different parts of India? I used to start off with asking them a question that was sort of related to the book, but then ask them to contextualise it in their own lives. Like what was your favourite breakfast, for example, or something like that. They had to buy into the book first and drawing connections from their own lives helped. I\u2019ve done other activities as well in schools and outside, in bookshops and literature festivals. So when I came into academia \u2013 as you were saying, Lata, theory is important \u2013 but for me, theory is important in the lived experience of people rather than in just reading about it.<\/p>\n<p style=\"text-align: justify;\"><strong>Lata<\/strong>: Yeah absolutely. I agree.<\/p>\n<p style=\"text-align: justify;\"><strong>Parinita<\/strong>: So I\u2019m reading about this in academia, but I\u2019m always drawing connections to my experiences and through second-hand experiences as well. Which is why in the podcast, maybe that\u2019s why I wanted to not privilege just my own voice; I\u2019m not comfortable privileging my own voice because I don\u2019t think I know too much. I know children\u2019s books, but I don\u2019t know so much. So like you said, selfishly, it\u2019s me trying to learn through other people\u2019s perspectives. I obviously have these ideas and theories, I have some level of knowledge; but it is very incomplete knowledge which other people help fill in. Especially people who come from different backgrounds. I think intersectionality includes decolonisation as well. It has its roots in Black feminism in the US so originally it looked at class and race and gender and sexuality \u2013 how they intersect and affect black women\u2019s lives in the US. But now, in academia and, for me, online discussions have expanded it to look at other identities as well. So we\u2019re talking about it in terms of how we\u2019re both privileged and marginalised. You\u2019re both. Even when you\u2019re marginalised in spaces, you still have other levels of privilege. And they\u2019re also very contextual. Like my identity in India is very different from my identity as a brown immigrant in the UK, for example. So we\u2019ve been talking about all these things. I\u2019m cisgender, I\u2019m heterosexual \u2013 so for me, those are blind-spots as well. And I don\u2019t have any identified disabilities. So for me, talking to people about their experiences is so much more valuable than \u2026 reading is important as well, obviously. I read theory in academia and things but they\u2019re living in it. Their practice is informing their theory almost, which for me is hugely valuable. And what you were saying, Lata, about the exclusions and inclusions in digital literacy as well. I find that really fascinating because I\u2019ve learned so much just by making a podcast. I\u2019d never made a podcast before I jumped off the deep end of the pool like, \u201cOh yeah I\u2019ll do this for my PhD!\u201d And I\u2019ve just learned so much. I\u2019ve been a very online person since I was sixteen, I think. I\u2019ve just grown up online. So I\u2019m comfortable with online things; I like learning new things. But I think everybody has more skills than they give themselves credit for. Like for you, Lata, once you actually sat down to do Zoom, it was easy enough for you. So I\u2019m sure you have more skills than you think you do.<\/p>\n<p style=\"text-align: justify;\"><strong>Lata<\/strong>: I\u2019m not sure about that. [laughs]<\/p>\n<p style=\"text-align: justify;\"><strong>Parinita<\/strong>: [laughs] When you were talking about digital exclusion and inclusion, I think there\u2019s more nuance to that as well. In a previous podcast episode for my podcast, we were talking about this newspaper called Khabar Lahariya, which is a rural newspaper in India. I don\u2019t know how much you know about it but it was started by this woman to look at local news and rural news.<\/p>\n<p style=\"text-align: justify;\"><strong>Lata<\/strong>: Yeah.<\/p>\n<p style=\"text-align: justify;\"><strong>Parinita<\/strong>: And she had women as journalists and as distributors. And after a few years, they have transitioned online. So their news is now on Facebook, through WhatsApp, through Telegram. And they\u2019ve done it so much better than a lot of bigger newspapers have managed to do. They are so with it. I think that disrupts these notions as well; maybe not of people who know about it, but even in India, in Indian cities, for example, we have these ideas about rural women. Like, \u201cOh these rural women are doing all this?! We didn\u2019t know. Phones! What?! Digital literacies?!\u201d So I think that\u2019s really interesting. In terms of your own experiences, in terms of literacy, have you engaged with multiple kinds of literacies or multiple kinds of knowledges as well while doing these things we\u2019ve been talking about?<\/p>\n<p style=\"text-align: justify;\"><strong>Sayan<\/strong>: Well multiple forms of literacies \u2026 now this perspective makes me think about what other various ways we gain knowledge. And this process of gaining knowledge, to my best I try to be conscious to understand it away from that capitalistic concern of knowledge production. So when I say gain knowledge, I don\u2019t mean that \u201cknowledge production\u201d thing. So I\u2019m keeping that aside. If I again go back to my individualistic as well as collective practices of what I engage with everyday decolonial thinking and doing, I feel that what I read in the text and what I do in the context \u2013 somewhere somewhat I always try to relate that. So to give a very simple and a straightforward example, when I\u2019m eating a particular food item, I\u2019m getting my certain tastes in my tongue, for sure, and whether I\u2019m liking or disliking the food. But it\u2019s much beyond that. I am gaining a form of cultural knowledge even in my process of disliking that. Even if I\u2019m disliking that, still I am gaining a kind of cultural knowledge and gaining a kind of social knowledge, a racial knowledge, a geographical knowledge and varieties and various dimensions of knowledge. So for me, that context is the text for me at that time. Like if I\u2019m wearing a particular dress, on a particular occasion. Now for instance there are various ways of drinking alcohol in Bhutan which is actually absolutely very interesting. You don\u2019t drink the same kind of alcohol in all the occasions. So, for example, the interesting part is that they drink alcohol on every occasion. So if you compare it with the Western concept, to be very specific about the colonial West, alcohol is an element of celebration. Some will interpret alcohol as an element of violence. But here, alcohol underlies every aspect. So if there is a birth, for example, when a child is born, the ritual is that the mother will take a clean cloth, will rub a bit of alcohol on the cloth and will rub it on the lip of the child. That\u2019s a ritual. And that alcohol will have a very, very, very low alcoholic content actually so that it doesn\u2019t harm the health of the child. It\u2019s a ritual. Then the alcohol that is taken in the time of, for example, a big Buddhist festival is not going to be the same alcohol that is going to be consumed at the time of a marriage or at the time of someone\u2019s death. So the point is, just with drinking different types of alcohol, before coming here, the typical vision that I had before coming here, or those set of notions about consumption of local alcohols or foreign liquors or whatever, completely transformed here. So, it is also a form of literacy for me. This alcohol is a form of language for me, this alcohol is a form of pedagogy for me \u2013 the drinking process, sitting in that collective, cultural space is a pedagogy for me. So through these examples, through these experiences of the daily life, I try to position this notion of literacy, or if I put it as collective literacy, through these daily life experiences.<\/p>\n<p style=\"text-align: justify;\"><strong>Lata<\/strong>: Yeah that\u2019s actually, that\u2019s really, without wanting to make it sound like a pun, Sayan that\u2019s given me food for thought. And I do mean that genuinely because I think that in answer to your question about engaging with different knowledges, the immediate response to that is no, because I am who I am and live where I live and so my starting point is that I don\u2019t know stuff. And so I have to work really hard to keep finding out both the things I don\u2019t know and the ways in which I don\u2019t know them. But in a way that\u2019s actually quite liberating. Because if we go back to the original thing about academic framings, there\u2019s lots of pressure to be an expert and know everything. I actually find it quite nice to be able to start by acknowledging well actually, I only know this much about this much. I know this tiny little slice; and even then, I\u2019m not going to claim that I know everything about this tiny little slice of stuff that\u2019s happening here in this little part of the world where these sets of ideas interact and I know some aspect of that. Because when my starting point is I don\u2019t know things, or I know things the way I know them but I would never ever want to assert that it\u2019s the only way, actually that\u2019s a really productive place to start without wanting to sound too commodifying. It\u2019s a very productive place to start because what that allows me to do is say okay, how do I challenge myself? So I know it this way \u2013 this could be food cultures, it could be language, it could be ritual, it could be pedagogy in the classroom, it could be how I interact with my children, it could be watching the news, Twitter, whatever right? But if my starting point is okay, this is what I think I know and then something comes along, then it\u2019s actually really nice because my first question is obviously okay well what do I learn from this? And is there a way for me to think about whether there\u2019s another way to approach this issue or question? If I tried to get outside of my own head or if I put aside what I think I know about this, what might that teach me about how somebody else might be experiencing that? So, Parinita, your point about being heterosexual in a heteronormative world and not having a disability, this particular positionality that you hold interacting with people and actually that revealing lifeworlds that you don\u2019t have access to, doesn\u2019t mean that you can\u2019t have solidarity, that you can\u2019t learn, and that we can\u2019t build collective wisdom or action, right? It\u2019s actually really liberating because if my starting point is I don\u2019t know, well then every interaction is a learning opportunity. And that\u2019s brilliant. I don\u2019t mean that in a kind of I figured it out. Sayan, the language of unsettling, it\u2019s perfect. You\u2019re constantly unsettling yourself. In a way the most successful academics are the ones that just think, I am fantastic and I know all of these things \u2013 they\u2019re the most successful ones. I\u2019m not interested in that. I mean I can imagine that might be fulfilling in its own way, right? You get promotion, you gain a platform notoriety, money, whatever and there may be something to that. But I think collectively what it feels like we\u2019ve expressed is we\u2019re all aiming for something bigger, right? There is actually something else that has to come out of all of this. Which isn\u2019t even in itself an end or an outcome. But trying to embed different types of processes, validating different pluriversal experiences and knowledges that might actually reshape the world. Because ultimately, I think all of us are expressing a discomfort about the determinism of the world that we live in. That doesn\u2019t even mean that we share the same vision. But actually, that discomfort I think is good. That\u2019s important. Because who would want to live in exactly the same world? That\u2019s a bit bleh. That\u2019s a bit boring, right? The question is how do we all work towards that collectively, but still embrace the fact that we might all want different things out of that? What does that process look like? Embracing that uncertainty, allowing yourself to be unsettled, is the first step. But actually, having done it, I feel hugely liberated. Because then, I don\u2019t have to have all the answers. And that\u2019s great! [laughs] And then my job becomes something else. I say this to my students all the time that I\u2019ve got the best job in the world. I get paid to think. I get paid to learn. Don\u2019t tell my employers but I might do it for free, right? When I approach it like that, it is fantastic. But it is often unsettling, right? Because sometimes we do want answers or answers are being demanded of us. Parinita, you\u2019re talking about imposter syndrome and there is an element of that, right? We are put in that position because we\u2019re supposed to know stuff. So then when I don\u2019t have an answer, your instinct is to go, \u201cOh my god. I don\u2019t really belong here.\u201d But it\u2019s actually about living with that sense of discomfort and being unsettled. Sayan, I think you\u2019re absolutely right. Which is then you want to be able to radiate that outwards. How do we unsettle? But not in ways that are meant to be about attacking or distrust. It\u2019s about actually trying to understand what the purpose of that unsettling is. Why would I want to unsettle? It\u2019s not because I want to upset you or because I\u2019m trying to make you feel bad or because I think everything is horrible or anything like that. The unsettling is about, well, hang on a second, if I just step back and take a different perspective on this or I look at this ritual or that food or this custom or this language or this geographical place \u2013 what if I shifted the lens a little bit like this? Or I described it in this way? Is it possible that we can learn something? Is it possible that we would be better off from it somehow? That we might actually create a different world? And the possibilities of that are so exciting that the discomfort and the unsettling is worth it for me. But for me it\u2019s very much about a learning process. And living with that is a challenge but it\u2019s hugely rewarding. So the answer to your question \u2013 the short answer is no, I don\u2019t. But I want more. So I\u2019ll just keep looking for it. [laughs]<\/p>\n<p style=\"text-align: justify;\"><strong>Parinita<\/strong>: I love that. This conversation was so brain set abuzz and brain set alight.\u00a0 Because sometimes it feels very isolating because not everyone within academia seems to want to question these things or seems to want to know about these things or is interested or whatever. So it\u2019s nice to talk to people who do think about these things and who are doing things.<\/p>\n<p style=\"text-align: justify;\"><strong>Sayan<\/strong>: Somewhere somewhat I feel that because the title of this umbrella podcast is fandom and I think also through these interactions, we create a mutual fandom that dissects from the usual dimension of hero worship. We don\u2019t create pedestals; we are breaking pedestals. And we are basically acknowledging each other, critiquing each other, trying to understand each other\u2019s differences. I once read an article by obviously a very famous Portuguese thinker Boaventura de Sousa Santos and he talks about this concept of depolarised pluralities. That is, not only do we require a form of plurality, but it should be depolarised as well. So I think this very podcast interaction made me feel in the same manner. That it\u2019s not necessary we are all agreeing with each other, we critiqued each other, we acknowledged each other, we appreciated each other but also this consistent process brought so many new thoughts and dimensions to engage with in the future. Which I think is the most important thing. It\u2019s not about shutting down and getting the record and sharing on Facebook and WhatsApp. Yeah we need to do that, we need to spread that. But what after that? And that opens up the gateways for more interactions, more weavings in the future. And for that personally I really thank Parinita for inviting me and inviting us and creating this us thing altogether today.<\/p>\n<p style=\"text-align: justify;\"><strong>Parinita<\/strong>: Oh, it was totally Lata. Lata is the one who\u2019s helped poke me when I fell into my PhD research pandemic hole. I\u2019m so glad as well, Lata, that you brought us together. This was such a good conversation. More than ever now after talking to everybody here as well, I wish academia did more to talk to people who are not academics. Even in spaces like this, in <em>Convivial Thinking<\/em> or a podcast or just within academia in a classroom or whatever. Maybe talk to the students in a way that\u2019s not talking to them but talking with them. And having them contribute their knowledge and intelligence which will again disrupt your own thinking because you don\u2019t know. And that\u2019s good pedagogy, right? That\u2019s what we do in primary schools. I mean not in my school, we had 67 children in a classroom [laughs] but in other schools which have more room and resources to do this. You come together and you share knowledge and you have the skills that you exchange and learn from each other. Why don\u2019t we do that in higher education? Why is it that the older that you get, there\u2019s only one or two people who know. And even in terms of research, not just researching a group of people but having them be a part of the design as well. Not just you\u2019re going in there as a researcher and then going away, like you were saying, Sayan, just going away and doing this research and then sharing the research in the academic version of Facebook and WhatsApp which is journal articles that are very expensive to access. But just creating this knowledge with the people and then also sharing it in a way that makes sense to them and that\u2019s relevant to them. So yeah, that was apparently a very long final thought that I had. But thank you so much \u2013 this was fantastic. This was a great conversation.<\/p>\n<p style=\"text-align: justify;\"><strong>Lata<\/strong>: No thank you for bringing us together which has been fantastic.<\/p>\n<p style=\"text-align: justify;\"><strong>Sayan<\/strong>: Absolutely.<\/p>\n<p style=\"text-align: justify;\"><strong>Lata<\/strong>: And I\u2019m glad that we got to talk to each other.<\/p>\n<p style=\"text-align: justify;\"><strong>Sayan<\/strong>: Absolutely.<\/p>\n<p style=\"text-align: justify;\"><strong>Lata<\/strong>: It\u2019s been so nice to talk to both of you today.<\/p>\n<p style=\"text-align: justify;\"><strong>Sayan<\/strong>: It was fantastic interacting. I thoroughly enjoyed and learned and so many things to talk about again.<\/p>\n<p style=\"text-align: justify;\"><strong>Parinita<\/strong>: I know.<\/p>\n<p style=\"text-align: justify;\"><strong>Sayan<\/strong>: That makes me so happy actually.<\/p>\n<p style=\"text-align: justify;\"><strong>Lata<\/strong>: Yeah.<\/p>\n<p style=\"text-align: justify;\"><strong>Parinita<\/strong>: We need to have a second part of this episode. [laughs]<\/p>\n<p style=\"text-align: justify;\"><strong>Sayan<\/strong>: Sure why not.<\/p>\n<p style=\"text-align: justify;\"><strong>Parinita<\/strong>: Maybe in a post-pandemic world.<\/p>\n<p style=\"text-align: justify;\"><strong>Sayan<\/strong>: [laughs]<\/p>\n<p style=\"text-align: justify;\"><strong>Outro: <\/strong><\/p>\n<p style=\"text-align: justify;\">Thanks so much for listening! As both Lata and Sayan brought up throughout the episode, creating knowledge is such a collaborative effort and I absolutely have to agree. I learned so much from our conversation which I\u2019m so excited to incorporate into my own work and thinking. Thank you both for taking the time to do this and for being so patient throughout this episode\u2019s long journey out into the world. And thank you, Jack, for finding the time to edit this episode.<\/p>\n<p style=\"text-align: justify;\">\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>As you know we, as Convivial Thinkers, are continously exploring new formats of learning and engagaging with knowledges and especially with communities of knowledge. For that reason, we are extremely happy to host and feature Parinita Shetty and her work by way of text (- this transcript ) and audio (-the podcast conversation between Parinita &hellip; <a href=\"https:\/\/convivialthinking.org\/index.php\/2021\/03\/26\/how-do-we-learn\/\" class=\"more-link\">Continue reading<span class=\"screen-reader-text\"> &#8220;How do we learn? Engaging with communities of knowledge and culture beyond academic spaces&#8221;<\/span><\/a><\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":1,"featured_media":0,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"_bbp_topic_count":0,"_bbp_reply_count":0,"_bbp_total_topic_count":0,"_bbp_total_reply_count":0,"_bbp_voice_count":0,"_bbp_anonymous_reply_count":0,"_bbp_topic_count_hidden":0,"_bbp_reply_count_hidden":0,"_bbp_forum_subforum_count":0,"om_disable_all_campaigns":false,"_monsterinsights_skip_tracking":false,"_monsterinsights_sitenote_active":false,"_monsterinsights_sitenote_note":"","_monsterinsights_sitenote_category":0,"_uf_show_specific_survey":0,"_uf_disable_surveys":false,"footnotes":""},"categories":[4],"tags":[40,18,20,27,29],"class_list":["post-1772","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","hentry","category-speaking","tag-conviviality","tag-decoloniality","tag-epistemic-asymmetry","tag-knowledge","tag-pluriversality"],"aioseo_notices":[],"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/convivialthinking.org\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/1772","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/convivialthinking.org\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/convivialthinking.org\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/convivialthinking.org\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/1"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/convivialthinking.org\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=1772"}],"version-history":[{"count":4,"href":"https:\/\/convivialthinking.org\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/1772\/revisions"}],"predecessor-version":[{"id":1776,"href":"https:\/\/convivialthinking.org\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/1772\/revisions\/1776"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/convivialthinking.org\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=1772"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/convivialthinking.org\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=1772"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/convivialthinking.org\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=1772"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}